From the Hart: Role call! — OLB
Written by Andy Hart on July 22, 2010 – 3:34 pm -Training camp 2010 has the makings to be one of the most competitive in recent memory in New England. Endless roster spots, roles and starting jobs will be on the line this July and August on the practice fields at Gillette Stadium. As we head toward the opening of training camp on July 29, PFW will take a closer look at some of the more competitive areas on the roster. We’ll map out the scenario and then offer our opinions on how the competition might play out. But, more importantly, we’ll open up debate to you, the reader. In the end, you make the call!
Today we break down the battle at outside linebacker, arguably the most important competition on the roster this summer.
On the roster:
Tully Banta-Cain, Derrick Burgess, Jermaine Cunningham, Pierre Woods, Rob Ninkovich, Shawn Crable, Marques Murrell
Why the competition?:
A year ago a variety of bodies filled out a variety of roles at outside linebacker. By the end of the season Banta-Cain had established himself as a starter and every down option. Beyond that not much else was ascertained at the position, aside from the fact that it was one of the weaknesses of the team.
Now that Adalius Thomas has been sent packing and officially declared a free agent bust, the outside linebacker spot can look to the future. Banta-Cain re-signed with New England this spring, a reported three-year deal worth $18 million with $6 million guaranteed. After his 10 sacks a year ago he’ll be expected to lead the way in the pass rush, one of the team’s weaknesses last fall.
But who will join Banta-Cain with regular playing time and have a potential positive impact on the scheme? A big part of the possible answer comes in the form of unproven young players. Cunningham is one of this year’s second-round picks and would seem to have all the tools needed on the edge to be a well-rounded outside linebacker. The same was thought of the former third-round pick Crable, but after two years on IR and no NFL games played his professional future is far more dubious than bright. Ninkovich has a lot of physical similarities with Mike Vrabel and a similar background. But that doesn’t mean he can develop into an All-Pro. And while Woods started five games last fall, he’s notched only one career sack and at best seems like an option against the run. Or he may be a very good special teams contributor miscast in extended defensive action.
Like Banta-Cain, Burgess re-signed this spring. He had a quiet first season in New England after his summer trade from Oakland. His five sacks weren’t overly memorable, though he drew high praise at times from Bill Belichick. Maybe the former Pro Bowler will be more productive and an impact player with a year in the system under his belt. Maybe.
While it’s not nearly a return of the days when guys with proven NFL resumes like Willie McGinest, Vrabel, Rosevelt Colvin and Thomas were battling it out for action at outside linebacker, this could very well be one of the most competitive training camps at the position in the Belichick era. Starting jobs, roster spots and careers may very well be on the line.
Who do you think will end up winning the starting jobs at OLB? Can the pass rush be better than it was a year ago? Which of the young players are you most confident in? Will one of the veterans have a big year, much like TBC did last fall? Can Banta-Cain be a double-digit sack guy for two seasons in a row?
Andy Hart says…
Though I’m a very big TBC fan, I wonder if he can be a consistent double-digit sack guy and if he can hold up as an every down player for a full season. We’ll see, because I think he’s a lock for one of the starting jobs. While I think it’s a huge risk to expect a rookie to fill the role, I could see Cunningham landing the other starting spot early on. I’m just not sold on how valuable and productive Burgess is or can be. I think we may have seen the last of Crable in a Patriots uniform, which is funny since we never really saw him in a Patriots uniform. My heart is with Ninkovich, but I’m not sure he has all the Vrabel-like tools needed to be anything more than a backup or rotational guy. For me it’s Banta-Cain and Cunningham or bust in 2010!
Erik Scalavino says…
Last year’s regular duo of Banta-Cain and Burgess will retain their jobs, by default, at least in the beginning. However, it’s entirely possible that one of the younger players - Crable, Cunningham? - will emerge to overtake one or the other (more likely Burgess). Regardless, with the lack of consistent playmakers at this position, we’ll most likely see a rotational, situational substitution arrangement, with the likes of Rob Ninkovich and Pierre Woods contributing as well. Much like the team’s running back situation, I expect a committee approach to play itself out at outside linebacker in 2010.
Now that you’ve read the predictions from the PFW boys, give us your thoughts on the competition at outside linebacker with a comment below!
Posted in General |
July 22nd, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Guys,
We’re depending alot on our second rounders this year (Hernandez, G-Force, Cunningham & Spikes) should we be concerned about the amount of camp they will miss? Also, how difficult will it be for Cunningham to overtake Burgess? Thanks for all you do.
July 22nd, 2010 at 5:12 pm
I have to say that neither view (Andy’s or Erik’s) leaves me terribly optimistic about the defense this season. It seems like we’ve all been waiting for a major deal to go down and land us a proven, veteran pass rush artist. We’ve been waiting since the 2009 pre-season. Is there any glimmer of hope that the Pats find what we’ve all been waiting for and sign this player during camp? We were all shicked by the Seymour trade last season; so, is there any chance that the Pats bring someday in this time instead? We all know we need a bigger stud (reputation and playmaking-wise) at the OLB spot. A committee approach and/or heavy reliance on a rookie and a (potential, ’cause i got nothing against TBC, but just want to keep it real) one-hit womder just aint gonna cut it in a division that has vastly improved. Any hope for this, or are the Pats really committed to hoping for home-grown talent to emerge out of the crop we already have? Thanks guys, and lookin’ forward to things heating up soon.
July 22nd, 2010 at 5:42 pm
Man I hope Crable reads your stuff and gets a chip on his shoulder and proves all of us wrong.
I also think Bill isn’t through adding to this position, do you?
July 22nd, 2010 at 5:46 pm
I’d love to see Ninkovich take the starting spot opposite TBC, and Burgess not make the opening day roster. I’d also like to see a rotation, with Cunningham and Crable playing in certain situations. I don’t see Woods ever contributing past special teams
July 22nd, 2010 at 5:59 pm
With the triple W’s manning the D-Line (Warren, Wilfork, and Warren…sounds like a law firm)any if not all of our outside linebackers “should” be able to get pressure on the QB. Start the season with Burgess and TBC but work in Cunningham as much as possible, he is part of the future. The key will be the “WWW”.
July 22nd, 2010 at 6:22 pm
Burgess is going to be a Beast this year. He was one step away, all last season. Now that he has a full training camp and knows the system, he will outsack Banta Cain !!! Take That To The Bank….
July 22nd, 2010 at 6:26 pm
Burgess is going to be a Beast this year. He was one step away, all last season. Now that he has a full training camp and knows the system, he will outsack Banta Cain !!! Take that to the bank…
July 22nd, 2010 at 6:29 pm
My guess is that the Patriots will use 3-4 base to defend the run and 4-3 base to defend the pass.
In 4-3 TBC/Burgess/Cunningham would line up as DE’s with Mayo/Guyton/McKenzie/Williams lining-up at OLB.
In 3-4 TBC/Burgess/Cunningham/Ninkovich would line up as OLB.
July 22nd, 2010 at 6:42 pm
I think TBC and Burgess are the opening day starters based on experience alone, but Cunningham will get a lot of reps to get his pure talent on the field. I would like to see Crable and Ninkovich grab the other roster spots because they have a higher ceiling than the remaining options. To me, Woods is just a body and has had enough time to prove what he can do.
July 22nd, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Unfortunately it probably will be Banta-Cain and Burgess who starts but hopefully it weither won’t las for long. I thibnkl it is such a waste to draft a guy then have sit on the bench for a season, or two or three. The exception of course is that the team actually has a vet that is much better which the Pats do not. Rather see Cunningham getting experience than waste time seeing if Burgess even has anything in the tank.
July 22nd, 2010 at 8:23 pm
@ Mike Stewart
One step away from what…the right tackle. To me, it looked like he was brother-in-lawing it with the right tackles all season. I missed him being just a step away from big plays. Sorry.
July 22nd, 2010 at 9:05 pm
i never thought i’d write these words but if tully banta cain gets hurt we are totally screwed !!! not good , we need a young guy to hit at the outside .
July 22nd, 2010 at 9:36 pm
I think Paul’s 2009 slogan will hold true for 2010. This lineup will go as far as the offense will take them.
July 22nd, 2010 at 10:09 pm
I think when we had good defense and added good offense we did well once Brady and some others came on board; Moss and Welker. The issue I see is now that we can score 40+ a game we’re also getting scored on 40+ a game and with other teams building up a good defense and/or running back core, we are playing win by outscoring. Which is a little scary to say the least. I think we’ll do ok, but not without another large, quick new patriot at olb, or maybe cummingham (hopefully) in the spot.
But we need playmakers not just bodies, to win the the AFC again.
July 22nd, 2010 at 10:11 pm
Though there may be a few tenths difference in the 40 yard dash from linebacker to linebacker, this narrows to meaningless fractions of a second in an eighteen yard dash to a quarterback. I think the entire linebacking corps can get there at approximately the same time as one another….but they frequently don’t. To me, the name on the jersey is not so nearly important as the schemes of attack…..and I would put the pass rushing failures of the past at the doorstep of the defensive coordinator. If you can get them in there…..they are all capable of sacks or hurries one to the next on a footspeed basis…..they aren’t getting them in there….and they quite possibly aren’t bringing enough surprises from the safety and cornerback positions either.
I’ll guess, and say a second round pick shares duties with Burgess the old man….it’ll keep him a little fresher and youthful….and maybe make the vigor at one OLB slot a bit better.
July 22nd, 2010 at 10:41 pm
Remember B.B.is handling the D.F.this year.Burgess knows the system now I see him having a brakeout year.TBC will be beter.Crable has a chance to prove him self (now or good by)He looks realy good then gets hurt.Cunningham has the speed to get to the Q.B. so put him in on third downs ,so he can get some reps.The other olb are bread in buter guys that can fill.B.B. has the horses to run a 4/3 and 3/4 also I think B. Spikes will be the next Ray L. (New E. style)
July 22nd, 2010 at 10:56 pm
Honestly..if you believe that TBC & Burgess are the answer at OLB, we’re in trouble..TBC is a good backup at best! Burgess is a mystery…he had talent 4 years ago…we’re still waiting for him to re-emerge? It has to be Cunningham,Crable,Ninkovich..all these guys are young, hungry & are spending lots of time with BB…”in Bill we Trust”
Never rule out a trade either!!
July 22nd, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Pats know what they’re doing… Remeber we won three championships with blue chip role players! And of course the greatest coach and QB of our time… Dont stress it fellow die-hard fans.. Patriot Nation has it all under controll.. Infact we will win it all this year! Patriot faith and Pride baby XD
July 22nd, 2010 at 11:55 pm
mick, your comment makes no sense, a 4-3 consists of 2 DEs and 3 lbs (one middle, 2 outside on most cases) and a 3-4 consists of 2 DEs and 4 LBs… so saying that there will be 3 DEs and 4 LBs in the 4-3 makes no sense
July 23rd, 2010 at 6:12 am
Cunningham if Belichick doesn’t make learning the D too difficult ! Stone Mountain’s finest gonna bring it !…
July 23rd, 2010 at 7:46 am
I think when preseason roles around Cunningham and Crable will be able to show what they can do and that will decide who will play more between those two. TBC and Burgess I think will start because of experience and they will have a good year.
July 23rd, 2010 at 9:55 am
Since Bryant’s signed, it should only be a matter of time before the first and second rounders start falling in line. I doubt Spikes, Gronk, Cunningham or McCourty will miss much - if any - of camp. I think Belicheck is going to be the biggest difference to this OLB group. If he is focusing more on their development and acting as de facto coordinator, hopefully he can bring along players like Crable and Cunningham more quickly. There are a lot of question marks here but until you see these guys on the field, in pads, I don’t think you can be too high or too low on them.
July 23rd, 2010 at 10:26 am
Can’t wait for the season!!! I think the entire LB core is an interesting subject, and could change all throughout the season. When the season starts, I’d expect to see Mayo and Spikes inside and TBC and Burgess at outside. But as the season progresses, Cunningham will see a lot of playing time.
July 23rd, 2010 at 10:37 am
Jason, I understand the number of DE’s and OLB’s that can be on the field at anyone time in 4-3 and 3-4 schemes. By listings DE’s/OLB’s in 4-3/3-4 formations, I was implying that the players will rotate in-out from series to series. I am guessing that some of the ILB’s would be used as OLB’s in 4-3 formations this year.
July 23rd, 2010 at 10:40 am
I almost guarantee I’m going to be wrong but I’ve heard nothing but good things about Crable, in great shape and knows the playbook well (He should he’s had the last two years to read up.) So here’s hoping the youth prevail and we see plenty of Crable and Cunningham in the backfield.
July 23rd, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Ninkovich is the man for the job. Guy is an amazing athlete with great football IQ. He is a beast to block and he has impressive wheels. Just needs PT, if he gets it Patriot fans will join me on the “NINKO” bandwagon
July 23rd, 2010 at 1:17 pm
I’m not concerned with sacks, I’m concerned with pressure. As long as we can make the QB’s get rid of the ball quickly, we’re ok. I think TBC and Burgess will be early starters with Cunningham taking TBC’s spot. BB seemed to be really high on Burgess, despite waiting forever to resign him, and I think that having a full offseason will really benefit him. I don’t think either guy is going to break 10 sacks, but if each can get to around 7 or 8 and another guy can do 4-5, I think things will be ok, especially if TBC doesn’t get 4 in one game and 3 the rest of the season. Again, the name of the game is pressure. Cut the QB’s time from 7.5 seconds to 6.5 and that becomes turnovers.
July 23rd, 2010 at 3:51 pm
TBC, Cunningham, Burgess, Ninkovich, and whoever that new guy was. Its time for a change and if it is new or relatively new I’ll take it. Woods is a joke and Crable is just gonna get injured again. TBC is a good rusher and Ninkovich in the games I watched put some pressure on the QB too. I don’t know if he ever got there… Burgess sets the edge. Get rid of one Thomas, bring in another. Cunnigham has potential but like somebody mentioned earlier and Shawn Springs mentioned on NFL.com, with the Pats style of defense, you better put up 30+ points a game. Bottomline is everybody else has switched to a more attacking style D. Even the Colts made a slight switch. Look how far they got being a tiny bit more proactive. You have all the tools and potential just lying there. Same on offense. But, if you don’t know how to use them or won’t use them how they should be used (Asante samuel should have been covering Buress in SB42) (Last year Bodden to Wayne not a rookie to wayne) then you lose more games than you should. If you get the tightends involved in the passing games along the Dallas Cowboys style of attack with Witten and Bennett, then you got it made. If you waste them blocking or getting them out fo their comfort zone (slot over the middle) you are going to have more turnovers like last year. Getting the ball to welker helps stats but what else is it doing?? With all this said I’m optimistic a light came on in BB’s head after that playoff loss. We shouldn’t be embarrassed again. But i still doubt anybody will own us like 50 and 60 points we’ve put up on people in the past.
July 23rd, 2010 at 5:01 pm
I disagree with everyone.
Concern for pass rsuhing OLBs was last year’s problem and it is solved.
The sports writers and fans just haven’t seen it confirmed yet. There are now two proven veterans as starters, both of whom have recorded double digit sack years on their resumes. Both have a year in the system now too.
Both TBC and Burgess at ROLB and LOLB respectively also now have a pair of talented high draft picks with ideal triangle numbers grooming and pushing behind them. And beyond that, there is a pair of journeymen, at least one of whom is a ST star.
The much more fuandamental problem was the hole opened at RDE, with the Seymour trade and accompanied by the the unsatifactory ILB backup linebacking. It is very tough to pass rush on 3rd and 2, and hope to to get to the QB, very often. And that was the situation all too often in 2009.
If that problem is handled by the playoffs, with an acclimated SILB like Spikes/Mackenzie and an established SS like Chung, playing behind a solid run stopper at RDE like either Warren, Lewis and/or Wright, singularly or in combination, then the 3rd and 8s will be there.
If they are, the pass rush will suddenly appear.
July 24th, 2010 at 1:24 am
Is Willie McGinnis Available; just in case we need his skills? If Willie McGinest is not physically able to put up the numbers than how about as a IL/OL coach?
July 24th, 2010 at 2:18 am
I agree with 15 Geoffrey Redmond. Linebackers are pretty much the same speed, but it is the defensive coordinater that put’s them there to make the play. Also I disagree with 16 craig wheeler that B.B. should be taking on that duty. Didn’t a couple of other coaches try that? With the speed of the game today shouldn’t he stay with what he’s been so brilliant at? Picking and teaching and developing? And like 20 bryce says, what if he makes the defense a little to complicated? All just questions. GO PATS!!!!
July 24th, 2010 at 6:20 am
Going with TBC and Crable. The edge Crable has over Cunningham is having a few years to study the playbook. As the season goes on we’ll see less of TBC and more of Cunningham, because let’s face it, 9.5 sacks is the peak for Tully. He’s never been at that level and and at his age a decrease in production is much more likely than an increase. Plus almost half of his sacks last year came against the Bills, who had starting tackles that other teams would have as 2nd strings at best. Hoping for more of a youth movement!
July 24th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Ok my Sorry to toot my own horn Ive coached for many years The 2nd year my D. F. did not give up one point all year.In the N.E. S.B.runs the D.always came up with a big play when we needed it.The Giants beat us with D in our last S.B. B.B.saw last years the Defence as the weakest link.plus it is in his blood From the Big tuna days.Brady can run 80% of the Offence.We need Bill on D. I still can’t get over the first play in the playoffs last year the Ravens taken it to the house. That would have never happened if R.H. was on the field.Note the word safety.
July 24th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
OLB is easily the Pats biggest weak point in my opinion. I love Tully (I bought a Tully Pats jersey when he used to wear #48 and was basically a special teams guy), but I see him as more of a role player, mostly on passing downs. I really think a huge problem for the Pats is their blitzing schemes. I’m baffled out how a team like the Eagles can muster up all kinds of pressure and chaos against teams when looking at their front 7 on paper compared to the Pats, I really don’t see a huge difference in the caliber of playmakers. The Pats scheme has to improve or their secondary will be out on an island again this year. Cunningham is the true X factor. I hate to put so much pressure on a rookie, but none of the other OLB’s, minus Tully, impresses me at all. I thought Burgess was a nice pick up when they got him, but he hasn’t been a true playmaker for 4 or 5 years now. That tells me he’s pretty much done. The other guy just seem like fillers and special teamers. Belichick teams through history are notorious for having strong playmakers at the OLB position from L.T. to Willie Mac. Those are the guys that are supposed to bring the ruckus against all opponents!!
July 24th, 2010 at 7:22 pm
I think that the season will start off with Banta-Cain at ROLB and Burgess at LOLB.I think Jermaine Cunningham will probably be first off the bench and is projected to be the future at LOLB.After that,it will be a mix and match of Crable and Ninkovich,but you guys are forgetting that Guyton could be a factor at OLB as well.Especially since Brandon Spikes,which I predict will be playing next to Mayo a majority of the defensive snaps at ILB.
July 24th, 2010 at 8:03 pm
I think TBC is a lock at a starting job but as for the spot opposite of him, I’m a big ninkovich fan, I mean look at the guy, he’s a vrabel look alike. I think the job will go to ninkovich or sound round pick Cunningham. Also since people seem to be set on spikes taking the spot opposite of mayo, what about Guyton at OLB?
July 24th, 2010 at 11:13 pm
i look for burgess to be far more productive this year w/ a year under his belt! tbc will be productive but maybe not as well as he was in 09. I dont know what to expect from cRABLE, ive heard he is in much better shape now! I look for cunningham to be let on slow but continue to get a bigger role…guyton will also play on the outside when needed considering theres good depth on the inside. sack predictions;
TBC-8.5
Burgess-7
Cunningham-5
Crable-3.5
guyton-2
July 26th, 2010 at 2:44 am
I want to pick up where the last two posts left off (35 & 36). I see the ILB competition as being very competative and maybe leading to Guyton on the outside looking in. I see either McKenzie or Spikes next to Mayo on the inside, which means that Guyton could use his long body to get around the edge on the outside. I think that opening day starters will be TBC and Burgess with a healthy dose of Cunningham and Guyton. I really liked the Crable ick-up when it happened but after two injury restricted years I feel he may have lost his “edge” and won’t make the team. I would like him to but we need to make room for some DBs or WRs on the roster. I really think Guyton can be the OLB diamond in the rough we have been looking for.
July 26th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
I think the OLB position is one of the least talented on the club right now as compared to any other position. We have 4 starting spots, and no one who stands out as a true playmaking starter. TBC and Burgess are OK. They are not a dominating force by any stretch of the imagination. Guyton is not going to be the 3-4 OLB to start. He got plowed over last year when he played OLB in our 3-4. Perhaps he plays some OLB if we play some nickel or 4-3 where his speed not size would be the asset.
I think Cunningham is going to see time and see it early. I also would not rule out McKenzie moving to outside. Some (like Andy and Paul) call me crazy for saying that, but the guy has the same physical makeup as TBC, is quicker, stronger and will be able to set the edge. This of course assumes he can play.
July 26th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
i’m not waiting for a “year two jump” from Burgess, but is there any chance that he already made a jump at the end of last year? i would be happy if we saw the burgess of the last four games more consistently this season